08681: sgunner and clones, sgunner2 and clones: These games do not have an option to mirror the display like a real machine

ID	Category [?]	Severity [?]	Reproducibility	Date Submitted	Last Update
08681	Flip Screen/Cocktail	Minor	Always	Jun 23, 2023, 01:58	Jul 1, 2023, 01:58

Tester	Balthier	View Status	Public	Platform	MAME (Official Binary)
Assigned To		Resolution	Open	OS	Windows 10/11 (64-bit)
Status [?]	Direction Needed			Driver	namco/namcos2.cpp
Version	0.255	Fixed in Version		Build	64-bit
		Fixed in Git Commit		Github Pull Request #

Summary	08681: sgunner and clones, sgunner2 and clones: These games do not have an option to mirror the display like a real machine
Description	These games run in cabs that use mirrors to reflect the CRT display back to the player. There is no option to display them as normal. -norotate does not work. The image should be flipped horizontally. -flipx works. I also compared how other games with a mirror ouput with -norotate, and the ones I tried will ouput correctly flipped/inverted like a real machine defaults. Service Mode flip only works while in the menu too. This was the original issue and I flip flopped on this a bit, but every other game on this driver with a service menu flip option works with it, so maybe there is something wrong with that, or it is tied to this somehow.
Steps To Reproduce	1. run any of the affected games with -norotate
Additional Information	I found the manual for Steel Gunner 2 which btw is not in the current manuals collection for "Mame EXTRAs". https://www.crazykong.com/manuals/SteelGunner2.man.pdf The manual mentions a mirror a few times (Section 7-3 Mirror Replacement on page 20 according to sidebar), and usually games that use a mirror invert the image so that when reflected above and back to the player it appears normal like the Terminator 2 Judgment Day game. See my post below for videos of the machines for Steel Gunner 2. Steel Gunner also ran in similar cabs. Edit: added image of cab set up from Operation Thunderbolt manual since the other one omits that part.
Github Commit

Flags
Regression Version
Affected Sets / Systems	sgunner and clones, sgunner2 and clones

Attached Files	mirror.png (16,830 bytes) Jun 23, 2023, 05:51 Uploaded by Balthier
Attached Files	CRT_setup.png (76,249 bytes) Jun 24, 2023, 23:33 Uploaded by Balthier

No.21583 Fujix Administrator Jun 23, 2023, 03:47	Since these games are in upright cabinets, is it possible that this behavior is intentional?
No.21584 Balthier Tester Jun 23, 2023, 04:19 edited on: Jun 23, 2023, 04:42	If Steel Gunner 2 uses a mirror the screen should still have a "Display Normal" option which when turned on would mirror the display horizontally not vertically flipped. Right side up but backwards. These are gun games like T2. Here's the best video I can find for now of the actual machine. You can see the diagonal line down the inside side of the cabinet in front of the monitor from the mirror set up. Can't see the CRT below though. Same guy has a video on T2 and shows the whole machine off and it has a similar cab to Steel Gunner 2. Here's a video of the kit and you can see the mirror and CRT down below:
No.21585 Balthier Tester Jun 23, 2023, 05:49 edited on: Jun 24, 2023, 20:02	I'm going to repurpose this issue and focus on why there is no option to mirror the display like the machine does. Edit: The argument could be made here that one could just use -flipx to get the mirrored screen effect, but unless the user goes through the UI first that option is not available once the machine is running. I had a look at the othunder driver since Steel Gunner 2 is a conversion from that and the code says: https://github.com/mamedev/mame/blob/master/src/mame/taito/othunder.cpp#L76 Note: The hardware outputs reversed video because the cabinet uses a mirror. The video can't be flipped/reversed with the DIPs, it's fixed in hardware.
No.21594 Fujix Administrator Jun 27, 2023, 13:37	At first, I thought you mention that the filp setting in the service mode doesn't work correctly. Now do you mean you want an option to flip the screen horizontally in MAME? I think only if the original cabinet has the option, MAME should have it.
No.21595 Balthier Tester Jun 27, 2023, 16:24	Service Mode Flip option: does not work once you go back to the game, its right side up normal. -norotate: doesn't work, the game should have a mirrored display with rot disabled, like Operation Thunderbolt. -flipx works to mirror it, but like I said it should be mirrored already if use -norotate. At one point I thought it worked with the UI option Video Cocktail, but it doesn't either. I probably confused everyone, it confused me too. All the other games on this driver work with service mode flip, they rotate the image 180 degrees both in service and game modes. I should also note that these games use a mounted gun with pots and not a lightgun (see my other bug report), and it makes no sense to have a cocktail option for a lightgun game. How would you even play these on a table with lightguns?
No.21604 Balthier Tester Jul 1, 2023, 01:58 edited on: Jul 1, 2023, 03:23	Found the Steel Gunner 1 manual, also not in Mame Extras, and it seems to support Fujix's original notion that these games don't support the service mode flip option: http://www.aurcade.com/games/manuals/00000794.pdf Go to page 12 in the sidebar and it says "NO USE" for the TYPE and FLIP options. Funny that SG2 says the opposite for flip though. EDIT: Found an old thread where someone said they had a SG2 machine without a monitor. When they put another monitor in it the picture was backwards (appeared wrong way through the mirror). Another guy mentions some monitors have different connectors on the main monitor board for the yoke to plug into, and that switching between them can give a normal or mirrored display. http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,16841.0.html